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+Message-ID: <3FF8C4E6.9090008@lorenso.com>
+Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 19:59:02 -0600
+From: "D. Dante Lorenso" <dante@lorenso.com>
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+To: "Alex J. Avriette" <alex@posixnap.net>
+cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
+ PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
+References: <3FEE6DFB.9040408@lorenso.com> <200401040125.i041PLR14687@candle.pha.pa.us> <20040104191322.GD8524@posixnap.net>
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+
+Alex J. Avriette wrote:
+
+>On Sat, Jan 03, 2004 at 08:25:21PM -0500, Bruce Momjian wrote:
+>
+>
+>>>I finally figure it out, I just end up forgetting again later. I still
+>>>have no clue how I'd find the same data without using psql. In MySQL
+>>>I can run those queries from PHP, PERL...etc. I know you can find that
+>>>data in system tables in PostgreSQL, but I don't wanna muck around with
+>>>all that. I just wanna do something as simple as MySQL.
+>>>
+>>>
+>>[ Moved to hackers.]
+>>
+>>I am starting to agree that our \d* handling is just too overloaded.
+>>Look at the option list from \?:
+>>
+>>
+>>I like the idea of adding a new syntax to show that information using
+>>simple SQL command syntax, and putting it in the backend so all
+>>applications can access it. I know we have information schema, and
+>>maybe that can be used to make this simpler.
+>>
+>>
+>Bruce, while I agree with you about \d (and all its children), as well
+>as the querying we talked about on irc, I disagree with the notion of a
+>"SHOW DATABASES" query. This is one of the things that irritates me
+>about mysql is the pseudo-sql that everyone has come to accept ... It doesn't
+>make sense to create pseudo-sql, when all you're abstracting is function-macros...
+>
+Anything other than simple, short commands is a waste, IMHO. I can easily
+remember SHOW DATABASES and SHOW TABLES and DESC <table>, because they
+reflect
+my intensions directly and 'make sense'.
+
+Using the slash commands works if you are familiar with them ... sorta
+like 'ls' switches (I type 'ls -alF' without thinking about what those
+switches do because it's embedded in my head from years of repetition.
+Any other flags to 'ls', and I gotta go hit the man pages.)
+
+What's more important is the ability to use these commands from any
+interface not just 'psql' client. I think 'psql' already has the slash
+commands. No need to create NEW slash commands there...
+
+>If you want to find out how to show the databases in sql, use psql -E.
+>
+>
+Have you actually done that? OMG!
+
+1) Using System Catalogs ... (from psql -E)
+
+ SELECT n.nspname as "Schema",
+ c.relname as "Name",
+ CASE c.relkind
+ WHEN 'r' THEN 'table'
+ WHEN 'v' THEN 'view'
+ WHEN 'i' THEN 'index'
+ WHEN 'S' THEN 'sequence'
+ WHEN 's' THEN 'special' END as "Type",
+ u.usename as "Owner"
+ FROM pg_catalog.pg_class c
+ LEFT JOIN pg_catalog.pg_user u ON u.usesysid = c.relowner
+ LEFT JOIN pg_catalog.pg_namespace n ON n.oid = c.relnamespace
+ WHERE c.relkind IN ('r','')
+ AND n.nspname NOT IN ('pg_catalog', 'pg_toast')
+ AND pg_catalog.pg_table_is_visible(c.oid)
+ ORDER BY 1,2;
+
+or ...
+
+2) (using information schema ... little better)
+
+ SELECT table_name FROM information_schema.tables WHERE table_schema
+= 'public';
+
+or ...
+
+3) like MySQL does it...
+
+ SHOW TABLES;
+
+Lemme think about which one I prefer ;-) Uh, Ok, I'm done thinking
+now. hehe.
+
+There's something to be said about the 'SHOW'and 'DESC' sql-extensions
+added into MySQL. Newbies can really 'get' it quickly. It's what really
+sold me on MySQL when I first learned it. For me, it's like:
+
+ 'dir' in DOS,
+ 'ls' in Unix
+ 'SHOW' in MySQL
+ ??? in PostgreSQL ?
+
+Sure, with time as my database needs grew and I matured as a developer,
+I eventually gained more respect for PostgreSQL and have made the switch
+even without this feature, but to this day, I really think MySQL *did it
+right* with those extensions. You can't become a PostgreSQL guru without
+being a newbie first. I vote we make it easier for newbies.
+
+Dante
+
+
+
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+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48908@postgresql.org Thu Jan 8 21:50:03 2004
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+From: "William ZHANG" <uniware_at_zedware_dot_org@antispam.com>
+X-Newsgroups: comp.databases.postgresql.hackers
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
+Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 10:00:55 +0800
+Organization: N/A
+Lines: 6
+Message-ID: <btagi0$17bq$1@news.hub.org>
+References: <3FEE6DFB.9040408@lorenso.com> <200401040125.i041PLR14687@candle.pha.pa.us>
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+
+I think moving the \d and simliar features in psql
+to SQL is a good idea. That will make the features
+available in any client library. As for the syntax,
+maybe a investigation is needed.
+
+
+
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+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48835=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Tue Jan 6 03:08:59 2004
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+From: Tommi Maekitalo <t.maekitalo@epgmbh.de>
+Organization: Dr. Eckhardt + Partner GmbH
+To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
+Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:01:10 +0100
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+References: <3FEE6DFB.9040408@lorenso.com> <200401040125.i041PLR14687@candle.pha.pa.us> <20040104191322.GD8524@posixnap.net>
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+
+Am Sonntag, 4. Januar 2004 20:13 schrieb Alex J. Avriette:
+> On Sat, Jan 03, 2004 at 08:25:21PM -0500, Bruce Momjian wrote:
+> > > I finally figure it out, I just end up forgetting again later. I still
+...
+>
+> /functions
+> /databases
+>
+...
+
+Long options sounds really good. It is like GNU-tools. A single - for single
+character options and a double -- for long options.
+
+Ah - a single \ for short options in postgresql and a double \\ for long? What
+do you think?
+
+
+--
+Dr. Eckhardt + Partner GmbH
+http://www.epgmbh.de
+
+
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+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48912@postgresql.org Thu Jan 8 22:37:54 2004
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+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
+From: Rod Taylor <pg@rbt.ca>
+To: "D. Dante Lorenso" <dante@lorenso.com>
+cc: "Alex J. Avriette" <alex@posixnap.net>,
+ Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
+ PostgreSQL Development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
+In-Reply-To: <3FF8C4E6.9090008@lorenso.com>
+References: <3FEE6DFB.9040408@lorenso.com>
+ <200401040125.i041PLR14687@candle.pha.pa.us>
+ <20040104191322.GD8524@posixnap.net> <3FF8C4E6.9090008@lorenso.com>
+Content-Type: text/plain
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+Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:27:28 -0500
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+Status: OR
+
+> Anything other than simple, short commands is a waste, IMHO. I can easily
+> remember SHOW DATABASES and SHOW TABLES and DESC <table>, because they
+> reflect
+> my intensions directly and 'make sense'.
+
+Can you remember how to get a list of indexes on a particular table? How
+about a specific indexes build? I ask, because I constantly forgot both
+of those (don't like FROM).
+
+> 2) (using information schema ... little better)
+>
+> SELECT table_name FROM information_schema.tables WHERE table_schema
+> = 'public';
+>
+> or ...
+>
+> 3) like MySQL does it...
+>
+> SHOW TABLES;
+>
+> Lemme think about which one I prefer ;-) Uh, Ok, I'm done thinking
+> now. hehe.
+
+I actually prefer #2 myself. It works on a number of databases aside
+from just PostgreSQL. So, as a user who worked in a mixed environment it
+was easier to remember.
+
+But I get your point.
+
+> Sure, with time as my database needs grew and I matured as a developer,
+> I eventually gained more respect for PostgreSQL and have made the switch
+> even without this feature, but to this day, I really think MySQL *did it
+> right* with those extensions. You can't become a PostgreSQL guru without
+
+I agree with the simple SHOW TABLES command but disagree with:
+
+SHOW [FULL] COLUMNS FROM tbl_name [FROM db_name] [LIKE wild]
+
+I much prefer:
+
+SELECT * FROM COLUMNS WHERE table LIKE '%tab%' AND database = 'billing';
+
+It's not much longer, certainly more natural to those that know SQL, and
+infinitely more useful since you can create result sets that the
+programmer of SHOW hadn't considered. A perfect example is the addition
+of the FULL clause in SHOW. The above select does not need additional
+keywords for different formatting options as it can simply use "natural"
+SQL styling.
+
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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+From tswan@idigx.com Fri Jan 9 02:07:40 2004
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+Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 01:07:24 -0600
+From: Thomas Swan <tswan@idigx.com>
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+To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
+References: <200401060504.i0654B012562@candle.pha.pa.us>
+In-Reply-To: <200401060504.i0654B012562@candle.pha.pa.us>
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+
+Bruce Momjian wrote:
+
+>Alex J. Avriette wrote:
+>
+>
+>>On Sun, Jan 04, 2004 at 07:59:02PM -0600, D. Dante Lorenso wrote:
+>>
+>>
+>>
+>>>Anything other than simple, short commands is a waste, IMHO. I can easily
+>>>remember SHOW DATABASES and SHOW TABLES and DESC <table>, because they
+>>>reflect
+>>>my intensions directly and 'make sense'.
+>>>
+>>>
+>>What makes sense to me in csh doesn't make sense in a bourne shell.
+>>You can't expect all applications to work correctly. I'd like to second
+>>Peter's "yep" when asked if he could remember all the various \d*
+>>commands. It really comes down to whether you're trying. New software
+>>(even though you may have been using it for a year) requires some
+>>adjustment.
+>>
+>>
+>
+>OK, I will drop the idea. Thanks.
+>
+>
+>
+Bruce,
+
+The idea is not without merit. What you are looking at is a way to get
+this information as a query without having to know all the intricasies
+of all the pg_* internals or duplicating complex queries. "psql -E"
+shows you just how tricky this is. Secondly, if this information
+changes in a release, then the end user has to rewrite all of the
+queries to work. Being able to issue a query to the dbms and get the
+information as a normal SQL result makes sense and is definately convenient.
+
+The \d* commands work from psql but not from anywhere else. Try
+getting the information from a PHP script by sending a "\dS" query. It
+doesn't work. If the same queries were stored in the backend and
+referenced by psql and also could be referenced by other scripts, this
+would be a good thing and keep the work centralized. If the queries
+were in the backend, the psql users could keep the \dS command but it
+would call an internal function or execute a queried stored in the
+system tables.
+
+
+One option is to get the information via a function like
+
+SELECT * FROM pg_info('tables');
+SELECT * FROM pg_info('indexes');
+
+
+"psql -E" would show the same query being executed for "\dt"
+
+Another option if no one wanted a language construct, perhaps one option
+would be to store the queries themselves in a table like pg_queries.
+This also has the advantage of exposing the queries used so that they
+can used as examples for other purposes.
+
++------------+------------------------------------------+
+|pg_info_type|pg_query |
++------------+------------------------------------------+
+|tables |SELECT n.nspname as "Schema", c.relname |
+| |as "Name", CASE c.relkind WHEN 'r' THEN |
+| |'table' WHEN 'v' THEN 'view' WHEN 'i' THEN|
+| |'index' WHEN 'S' THEN 'sequence' WHEN 's' |
+| |THEN 'special' END as "Type", u.usename as|
+| |"Owner" FROM pg_catalog.pg_class c LEFT |
+| |JOIN pg_catalog.pg_user u ON u.usesysid = |
+| |c.relowner LEFT JOIN |
+| |pg_catalog.pg_namespace n ON n.oid = |
+| |c.relnamespace WHERE c.relkind IN ('r','')|
+| |AND n.nspname NOT IN ('pg_catalog', |
+| |'pg_toast') AND |
+| |pg_catalog.pg_table_is_visible(c.oid) |
+| |ORDER BY 1,2; |
++------------+------------------------------------------+
+|indexes |SELECT n.nspname as "Schema", c.relname as|
+| |"Name", CASE c.relkind WHEN 'r' THEN |
+| |'table' WHEN 'v' THEN 'view' WHEN 'i' THEN|
+| |'index' WHEN 'S' THEN 'sequence' WHEN 's' |
+| |THEN 'special' END as "Type", u.usename as|
+| |"Owner", c2.relname as "Table" FROM |
+| |pg_catalog.pg_class c JOIN |
+| |pg_catalog.pg_index i ON i.indexrelid = |
+| |c.oid JOIN pg_catalog.pg_class c2 ON |
+| |i.indrelid = c2.oid LEFT JOIN |
+| |pg_catalog.pg_user u ON u.usesysid = |
+| |c.relowner LEFT JOIN |
+| |pg_catalog.pg_namespace n ON n.oid = |
+| |c.relnamespace WHERE c.relkind IN ('i','')|
+| |AND n.nspname NOT IN ('pg_catalog', |
+| |'pg_toast') AND |
+| |pg_catalog.pg_table_is_visible(c.oid) |
+| |ORDER BY 1,2; |
++------------+------------------------------------------+
+
+
+Again, this is just food for thought. Perhaps it is a way to satisfy
+both arguments.
+
+Thomas
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48922@postgresql.org Fri Jan 9 05:23:03 2004
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+From: Tommi Maekitalo <t.maekitalo@epgmbh.de>
+Organization: Dr. Eckhardt + Partner GmbH
+To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
+Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:19:45 +0100
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+
+Hi,
+
+>
+> 2) (using information schema ... little better)
+>
+> SELECT table_name FROM information_schema.tables WHERE table_schema
+> = 'public';
+>
+> or ...
+>
+...
+
+I just looked at the information_schema. It is a very nice feature, but
+difficult to use in psql.
+
+I just wanted to see, what I can find here. After trying and rtfm I ended in
+'\d information_schema.*'. I get a very large page wich is quite unreadable.
+'\d' is normally very usable.
+
+It would be better not to show the view-definition.
+
+What if \d on views just show the column, type and attribute. \d+ would show
+the full view-definition.
+
+
+Tommi
+
+--
+Dr. Eckhardt + Partner GmbH
+http://www.epgmbh.de
+
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
+
+ http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48946@postgresql.org Sat Jan 10 07:42:08 2004
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+Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 04:36:06 -0800
+From: Kevin Brown <kevin@sysexperts.com>
+To: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
+Message-ID: <20040110123605.GA2608@filer>
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+
+Alex J. Avriette wrote:
+> On Sun, Jan 04, 2004 at 07:59:02PM -0600, D. Dante Lorenso wrote:
+>
+> > Anything other than simple, short commands is a waste, IMHO. I can easily
+> > remember SHOW DATABASES and SHOW TABLES and DESC <table>, because they
+> > reflect
+> > my intensions directly and 'make sense'.
+>
+> What makes sense to me in csh doesn't make sense in a bourne shell.
+
+And yet, bash has !$ and job control just like csh, even though they're
+not standard Bourne-shell features.
+
+It's not a bad thing to adopt good ideas from other projects.
+
+> You can't expect all applications to work correctly.
+
+You can't expect this anyway, at least when dealing with cross-database
+applications. The intersection of the SQL feature sets across all the
+major database engines is pretty limited -- small enough that you'll
+almost certainly end up using something database-specific when attempting
+to do anything truly nontrivial.
+
+> I'd like to second
+> Peter's "yep" when asked if he could remember all the various \d*
+> commands. It really comes down to whether you're trying. New software
+> (even though you may have been using it for a year) requires some
+> adjustment.
+
+This is true, but it's no argument against implementing "show
+databases", "show tables", and "describe".
+
+Every database engine is different, but in the case of PG it makes sense
+to adopt the best methods we can find. A consistent and easy to
+remember way of showing the various entities in psql (at the very least)
+would be of great advantage. It's something that MySQL gets right. As
+it turns out, we already have "SHOW" in psql and it's used for something
+else. So we might instead use something else (e.g. "VIEW") instead.
+
+Either way, a single command that takes as its argument the type of entity
+you want to see would be extremely useful, and much easier to remember
+than what we currently have -- because the names of the entities that
+are available are already well-defined and are likely known to the user
+already.
+
+> > What's more important is the ability to use these commands from any
+> > interface not just 'psql' client. I think 'psql' already has the slash
+> > commands. No need to create NEW slash commands there...
+> >
+> > >If you want to find out how to show the databases in sql, use psql -E.
+> > >
+> > >
+> > Have you actually done that? OMG!
+>
+> Yes, I do it frequently. You may notice a recent post of mine used
+> exactly that output.
+
+Now do it from within psql.
+
+It's \l, as it turns out. This violates the principle of least surprise
+because psql generally uses \d* to show entities.
+
+> > 3) like MySQL does it...
+> >
+> > SHOW TABLES;
+>
+> Should postgres also support the '#' comment? What other non-sql
+> sqlisms should we support?
+
+PG already has a number of PG-specific features. Adding more,
+*especially* if they happen to be compatible with other databases, isn't
+going to hurt much.
+
+No, the thing to worry about here is whether or not these commands
+("SHOW", for instance) will appear in the SQL spec and will have a
+completely different meaning from the meaning in PG. Also of concern is
+that "SHOW" is already reserved and used for something else. We'd have
+to use something other than "SHOW" for the purpose being discussed.
+
+> > There's something to be said about the 'SHOW'and 'DESC' sql-extensions
+> > added into MySQL. Newbies can really 'get' it quickly. It's what really
+>
+> I would argue that these are not "sql extensions" at all. If you like, I
+> can go over the source to verify this myself, but my guess is that MySQL
+> is doing exactly what postgres is doing, and evaluating this as a macro.
+
+No, they are built into MySQL's backend parser. You can easily verify
+this by executing these commands from within Perl or Python. They
+return a table just like any other SQL command that returns data.
+
+> Furthermore, databases are not designed for "newbies" to jump right in
+> with both feet. They are designed to be robust and stable.
+
+Now this is ludicrous. Yes, they're designed to be robust and stable,
+but that has absolutely nothing to do with how easy they are to use.
+
+> Additionally,
+> some SQL compliance is nice. After that, you work on features.
+
+If we were talking about something that went against the SQL standard
+then I would agree with you. But we're talking about something that,
+as far as I know, isn't in the SQL standard at all. Implementing it
+won't make us noncompliant with the SQL standard any more than the
+implementation of CREATE INDEX has.
+
+> Changing the interface so that you or others don't have to read the
+> documentation smacks of laziness.
+
+Really? One could make the same argument for standards of any kind,
+yes? :-)
+
+> Somebody like Bruce, Peter, or Tom (or indeed somebody else) is going
+> to waste yet more time making things like this available to somebody
+> who probably won't read any of the other documentation either, and will
+> wind up on irc pestering somebody like myself, Dave, or Neil. Why is
+> this progress?
+
+It's progress because it will keep those people from pestering someone
+in the know about how to show the available databases, or how to
+describe a table.
+
+> > sold me on MySQL when I first learned it. For me, it's like:
+> >
+> > 'dir' in DOS,
+> > 'ls' in Unix
+> > 'SHOW' in MySQL
+> > ??? in PostgreSQL ?
+>
+> We've been over this. It's \d*.
+
+For listing databases it's \l. Not exactly consistent with the rest of
+the related psql commands.
+
+> > Sure, with time as my database needs grew and I matured as a developer,
+> > I eventually gained more respect for PostgreSQL and have made the switch
+> > even without this feature, but to this day, I really think MySQL *did it
+> > right* with those extensions. You can't become a PostgreSQL guru without
+> > being a newbie first. I vote we make it easier for newbies.
+>
+> What really frightens me here is that I know of several applications (shudder,
+> "LAMP" applications) which use the output of "show tables" or other of your
+> "extensions." The problem with this is precisely that it /isn't/ sql, and it
+> can't be supported as a static command.
+
+Of course not. But applications which rely on information such as that
+provided by "show tables" will typically not be possible to write while
+adhering to the feature intersection of all major databases anyway.
+
+> It is intended to be there for people
+> to use interactively.
+
+Nonsense. It's there to be used. Whether it's used interactively or
+not is irrelevant. The command provides useful information. But see
+below.
+
+> Making "pseudo sql" will encourage more developers to
+> (and I'd apologize for this if it weren't true) code in Postgres the same
+> lazy way they code in MySQL.
+
+This is a strawman argument, although I understand your concern here.
+To be honest, for application development I'd much rather see people
+use information_schema, but that's only because information_schema is
+in the SQL standard and as such should be the preferred way to retrieve
+the information that the "SHOW" commands in MySQL return. That said,
+the inclusion of information_schema is a very recent development on the
+PostgreSQL side of things, and doesn't even exist on some other major
+databases such as MSSQL.
+
+Of course, a PG equivalent to MySQL's "show" would be an even more
+recent development... :-)
+
+
+--
+Kevin Brown kevin@sysexperts.com
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
+ joining column's datatypes do not match
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48947@postgresql.org Sat Jan 10 08:12:39 2004
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+From: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
+To: Kevin Brown <kevin@sysexperts.com>,
+ PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
+Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:07:24 +0100
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+Status: OR
+
+Kevin Brown wrote:
+> Every database engine is different, but in the case of PG it makes
+> sense to adopt the best methods we can find. A consistent and easy
+> to remember way of showing the various entities in psql (at the very
+> least) would be of great advantage. It's something that MySQL gets
+> right. As it turns out, we already have "SHOW" in psql and it's used
+> for something else. So we might instead use something else (e.g.
+> "VIEW") instead.
+
+What is wrong with
+
+SELECT * FROM information_schema.tables;
+
+? If it's too much to type, put information_schema in the path. This
+syntax has the advantage that you can use qualifications and other SQL
+features. And you can build customized views on top of it. Does SHOW
+TABLES or whatever it might be called support that?
+
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
+ joining column's datatypes do not match
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48948@postgresql.org Sat Jan 10 11:30:24 2004
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+From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dennis_Bj=F6rklund?= <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+To: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
+cc: Kevin Brown <kevin@sysexperts.com>,
+ PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
+In-Reply-To: <200401101407.24766.peter_e@gmx.net>
+Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0401101720500.13405-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
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+Status: OR
+
+On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
+
+> > to remember way of showing the various entities in psql (at the very
+> > least) would be of great advantage. It's something that MySQL gets
+> > right. As it turns out, we already have "SHOW" in psql and it's used
+> > for something else.
+>
+> What is wrong with
+>
+> SELECT * FROM information_schema.tables;
+
+The result is very hard to read since it's so much of it (try column
+instead of tables). The \xx commands do some nice formatting you don't
+get from the above.
+
+I would rather have long commands so one can write
+
+\describe_table foo
+
+and have the tab completion work for these of course (only for the long
+commands, the \dt and such does not belong in completion).
+
+The information schema is nice, but it's not what I want to use at the
+prompt to view the content of the database.
+
+--
+/Dennis Björklund
+
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
+ (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48950@postgresql.org Sat Jan 10 13:30:54 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M48950@postgresql.org>
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+To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
+References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0401101720500.13405-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0401101720500.13405-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+From: Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu>
+Organization: The Emacs Conspiracy; member since 1992
+Date: 10 Jan 2004 13:28:08 -0500
+Message-ID: <878ykf4q13.fsf@stark.xeocode.com>
+Lines: 22
+User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3
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+ candle.pha.pa.us
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+ version=2.61
+Status: OR
+
+
+Dennis Björklund <db@zigo.dhs.org> writes:
+
+> I would rather have long commands so one can write
+>
+> \describe_table foo
+
+I would think it would be better to keep everything under a single command and
+have a 1-1 correspondence to \d. Ie, just add a long form syntax following the
+existing \d. \d would become just an obvious set of abbreviations.
+
+So for example:
+
+\describe table foo => \dt foo
+\describe index foo => \di foo
+\describe aggregate foo => \da foo
+\describe operator foo => \do foo
+
+...
+
+--
+greg
+
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
+
+ http://archives.postgresql.org
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48952@postgresql.org Sat Jan 10 14:17:26 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M48952@postgresql.org>
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+ Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:15:19 -0500 (EST)
+To: Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu>
+cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
+In-Reply-To: <878ykf4q13.fsf@stark.xeocode.com>
+References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0401101720500.13405-100000@zigo.dhs.org> <878ykf4q13.fsf@stark.xeocode.com>
+Comments: In-reply-to Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu>
+ message dated "10 Jan 2004 13:28:08 -0500"
+Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:15:19 -0500
+Message-ID: <11694.1073762119@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at postgresql.org
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+ candle.pha.pa.us
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+ version=2.61
+Status: OR
+
+Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu> writes:
+> So for example:
+
+> \describe table foo => \dt foo
+> \describe index foo => \di foo
+> \describe aggregate foo => \da foo
+> \describe operator foo => \do foo
+
+It doesn't seem to me that this buys much except verboseness, though.
+
+ISTM there are three fundamental problems with \d and friends:
+
+ 1. Some people have a hard time remembering the commands.
+ 2. Some people aren't using psql.
+ 3. psql keeps breaking across backend versions because the
+ needed commands change.
+
+I don't see a lot of value in addressing just one of these problem
+areas, when we could instead do something that addresses all three.
+
+ regards, tom lane
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
+ joining column's datatypes do not match
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48954@postgresql.org Sat Jan 10 19:19:30 2004
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+Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:16:58 +0000 (UTC)
+From: Jon Jensen <jon@endpoint.com>
+X-X-Sender: jon@louche.swelter.net
+To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
+In-Reply-To: <11694.1073762119@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0401110014230.1302@louche.swelter.net>
+References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0401101720500.13405-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+ <878ykf4q13.fsf@stark.xeocode.com> <11694.1073762119@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+MIME-Version: 1.0
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+ candle.pha.pa.us
+X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham
+ version=2.61
+Status: OR
+
+On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, Tom Lane wrote:
+
+> ISTM there are three fundamental problems with \d and friends:
+>
+> 1. Some people have a hard time remembering the commands.
+> 2. Some people aren't using psql.
+> 3. psql keeps breaking across backend versions because the
+> needed commands change.
+>
+> I don't see a lot of value in addressing just one of these problem
+> areas, when we could instead do something that addresses all three.
+
+I agree, at least for #2 and #3. But I just don't understand #1. Anything
+is hard to remember when you're just starting to learn it. But it's still
+faster to type \? <CR> then \dt than it is to type "show tables". And
+"show tables" is hard (relatively speaking) for me to remember because I'm
+used to psql's way of doing things, since I mostly use it.
+
+Jon
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48955@postgresql.org Sat Jan 10 20:09:33 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M48955@postgresql.org>
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+ by curie.credativ.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
+ id EA9C35623C; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 02:07:25 +0100 (CET)
+From: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
+To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>, Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu>
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
+Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 02:07:25 +0100
+User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1
+cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0401101720500.13405-100000@zigo.dhs.org> <878ykf4q13.fsf@stark.xeocode.com> <11694.1073762119@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+In-Reply-To: <11694.1073762119@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+MIME-Version: 1.0
+Content-Type: text/plain;
+ charset="iso-8859-15"
+Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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+Message-ID: <200401110207.26299.peter_e@gmx.net>
+X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS at credativ.com
+X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at postgresql.org
+X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers
+Precedence: bulk
+Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
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+ candle.pha.pa.us
+X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham
+ version=2.61
+Status: OR
+
+Tom Lane wrote:
+> 2. Some people aren't using psql.
+
+I don't see why this is an issue. People not using psql are either
+using a GUI, which presumably supports plenty of "show" and "describe"
+functionality, or they're writing their own program, in which case it
+doesn't really matter how short or easy to remember the commands are.
+
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
+ (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48956@postgresql.org Sat Jan 10 20:19:59 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M48956@postgresql.org>
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+From: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
+To: Dennis =?iso-8859-1?q?Bj=F6rklund?= <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
+Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 02:13:17 +0100
+User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1
+cc: Kevin Brown <kevin@sysexperts.com>,
+ PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
+References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0401101720500.13405-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
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+
+Dennis Björklund wrote:
+> > What is wrong with
+> >
+> > SELECT * FROM information_schema.tables;
+>
+> The result is very hard to read since it's so much of it (try column
+> instead of tables). The \xx commands do some nice formatting you
+> don't get from the above.
+
+This is an interesting point to remember for those that are advocating
+pushing psql's queries into the backend. psql's queries are optimized
+for monospaced text screens of limited size. Unless someone else is
+writing a command-line client, there would be little reuse effect,
+because any given application will have different display requirements.
+
+(Another problem with pushing psql's queries into the backend is that
+much of the output that psql makes is not a single table. Sometimes
+there is more than one table, or the information is in the table
+footers. It'd be quite complicated to make the backend produce those
+kinds of displays.)
+
+
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+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48957@postgresql.org Sun Jan 11 04:34:27 2004
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+Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 10:29:23 +0100 (CET)
+From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+To: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
+cc: Kevin Brown <kevin@sysexperts.com>,
+ PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
+In-Reply-To: <200401110213.17581.peter_e@gmx.net>
+Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0401111012020.13405-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
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+
+On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
+
+> Another problem with pushing psql's queries into the backend is that
+> much of the output that psql makes is not a single table. Sometimes
+> there is more than one table, or the information is in the table
+> footers.
+
+Yes, pushing the \xx commands into the server makes no sense to me at all.
+
+The commands in psql are very specific for psql. I don't see why you ever
+want to do SHOW TABLES except at the command line in psql. If your
+application wants to find all tables in the database, then we have the
+standard sql way, which is the information schema.
+
+The argument that "show tables" is easier to remember then \dt might be
+true, but to me that just means that we should make psql better by adding
+\describe_table and such, not to push psql code into the server.
+
+Making a couple of views that are pg specific to make it easier to get
+information out could be good however. The information schema does not
+always contain all information one might want. Making specialised SQL
+commands for it I'm not in favor of at all.
+
+--
+/Dennis Björklund
+
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48965@postgresql.org Sun Jan 11 12:20:30 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M48965@postgresql.org>
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+To: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
+cc: Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
+In-Reply-To: <200401110207.26299.peter_e@gmx.net>
+References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0401101720500.13405-100000@zigo.dhs.org> <878ykf4q13.fsf@stark.xeocode.com> <11694.1073762119@sss.pgh.pa.us> <200401110207.26299.peter_e@gmx.net>
+Comments: In-reply-to Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
+ message dated "Sun, 11 Jan 2004 02:07:25 +0100"
+Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 12:18:05 -0500
+Message-ID: <16985.1073841485@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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+
+Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net> writes:
+> Tom Lane wrote:
+>> 2. Some people aren't using psql.
+
+> I don't see why this is an issue. People not using psql are either
+> using a GUI, which presumably supports plenty of "show" and "describe"
+> functionality, or they're writing their own program, in which case it
+> doesn't really matter how short or easy to remember the commands are.
+
+But this interacts with point 3 (psql breaks on every new backend
+version). It's not desirable to have every GUI and large custom program
+implementing its own set of metadata inquiry commands: they all have
+to go through the same update pain as psql. Perhaps if people start to
+rely on information_schema for those things, life will get better,
+but I'm unconvinced that will happen. psql itself certainly hasn't
+moved in that direction.
+
+ regards, tom lane
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48981@postgresql.org Sun Jan 11 20:52:09 2004
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+ Sun, 11 Jan 2004 20:50:12 -0500
+From: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
+To: Jon Jensen <jon@endpoint.com>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
+Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 20:50:08 -0500
+User-Agent: KMail/1.5
+References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0401101720500.13405-100000@zigo.dhs.org> <11694.1073762119@sss.pgh.pa.us> <Pine.LNX.4.58.0401110014230.1302@louche.swelter.net>
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+ version=2.61
+Status: OR
+
+On Saturday 10 January 2004 19:16, Jon Jensen wrote:
+> On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, Tom Lane wrote:
+> > ISTM there are three fundamental problems with \d and friends:
+> >
+> > 1. Some people have a hard time remembering the commands.
+> > 2. Some people aren't using psql.
+> > 3. psql keeps breaking across backend versions because the
+> > needed commands change.
+> >
+> > I don't see a lot of value in addressing just one of these problem
+> > areas, when we could instead do something that addresses all three.
+>
+> I agree, at least for #2 and #3. But I just don't understand #1. Anything
+> is hard to remember when you're just starting to learn it. But it's still
+> faster to type \? <CR> then \dt than it is to type "show tables". And
+> "show tables" is hard (relatively speaking) for me to remember because I'm
+> used to psql's way of doing things, since I mostly use it.
+>
+
+I'd second this point; I've certainly stumbled over the "show" syntax when
+trying to get anything other than tables in mysql.
+
+Robert Treat
+--
+Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48993@postgresql.org Mon Jan 12 12:50:40 2004
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+From: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
+To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
+Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:48:43 +0100
+User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1
+cc: Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0401101720500.13405-100000@zigo.dhs.org> <200401110207.26299.peter_e@gmx.net> <16985.1073841485@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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+ version=2.61
+Status: OR
+
+Tom Lane wrote:
+> But this interacts with point 3 (psql breaks on every new backend
+> version). It's not desirable to have every GUI and large custom
+> program implementing its own set of metadata inquiry commands: they
+> all have to go through the same update pain as psql. Perhaps if
+> people start to rely on information_schema for those things, life
+> will get better, but I'm unconvinced that will happen. psql itself
+> certainly hasn't moved in that direction.
+
+IIRC, the two killers in psql compatibility have been outer joins and
+schemas. I don't see how we could have avoided that, except with
+highly specialized and static (parameter-less) commands. There have
+been additional minor issues, but I suppose we could have avoided those
+if we had cared to do so at all.
+
+Several people have in the past proposed to keep psql backward
+compatible, even if only by means of
+
+if (version =x) {
+ ...
+}
+else if (version = y) {
+ ...
+}
+
+(which would be fine by me), but apparently no one has felt pressed
+enough yet.
+
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
+
projects / postgresql / commitdiff