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Seeya, Albert
+From pgsql-general-owner+M14288@postgresql.org Mon Aug 27 10:31:19 2001
+Return-path: <pgsql-general-owner+M14288@postgresql.org>
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+Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:38:15 +1000
+From: Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@svana.org>
+To: newsreader@mediaone.net
+cc: Jeff Davis <list-pgsql-general@dynworks.com>, pgsql-general@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [GENERAL] raw partition
+Message-ID: <20010827233815.B32309@svana.org>
+Reply-To: Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@svana.org>
+References: <20010826125450.A11535@dragon.universe> <0GIP004VTV1MTO@mta7.pltn13.pbi.net> <20010827091141.A3208@dragon.universe>
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+In-Reply-To: <20010827091141.A3208@dragon.universe>; from newsreader@mediaone.net on Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 09:11:41AM -0400
+Precedence: bulk
+Sender: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
+Status: OR
+
+On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 09:11:41AM -0400, newsreader@mediaone.net wrote:
+> On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 12:46:16AM -0700, Jeff Davis wrote:
+> > On Sunday 26 August 2001 09:54 am, you wrote:
+> >
+> > Obviously, if done properly, it couldn't hurt. However, is it really worth
+> > the extra trouble to set it up, and more so, to debug an extra form that disk
+>
+> I think it's only a matter of getting rid
+> of file system layer.
+
+But that won't work. Postgres currently stores each table in its own file.
+Thus, to implement raw access postgres would have to implement it's own
+filesystem within the raw partition.
+
+By using the filesystems built into the OS, it can take advantage of
+filesystem smarts already there. No to mention people just being able to use
+normal system commands to view what's there e.g. symlinks to relocate
+tables. I beleive that filesystem technology within the OS will advance much
+faster than anything the postgres developers could come up with.
+
+For example, by running your database on an ext3 partition, all file
+metadata is automatically journalled, with no additional effort from the
+postgres developers. You could even choose to journal all database access
+(though I have no idea how that interacts with WAL).
+
+> > marginal utility for integrated functionality? Consider this: should postgres
+> > be it's own OS; bootable and everything (get rid of all that OS overhead)? I
+>
+> file system overhead is all, I think.
+> The only thing I am sure about is that
+> whether pg (and developers) will have to be
+> aware of the disk technology since it is
+> evolving continuosly. Or is there another
+> layer provided by the OS: a layer
+> between physical disk and the filesystem?
+> That layer will have to understand UDMA technology,
+> SCSI technology? I have no idea.
+
+Well, a raw partition provided by the OS would hide such details. However,
+postgres would have to make assumptions about what kind of access patterns
+are optimal. The kernel is in a much better position to make such decisions
+about resource usage. Which is precisly why we have OS's in the first place.
+
+> > oracle allows this behaviour you speak of, but I have never used it. Does
+> > someone have experience (or benchmarks or whatever) with oracle's
+> > implementation?
+>
+> I have never used an oracle
+
+I beleive (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that even when used on a
+filesystem, oracle still places all it's tables in a single file i.e. it has
+a filesystem layer builtin. I think that's why it's a clear win for oracle
+because you *are* actually removing a layer.
+
+IMHO it's something postgres should stay well away from.
+--
+Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@svana.org>
+http://svana.org/kleptog/
+> It would be nice if someone came up with a certification system that
+> actually separated those who can barely regurgitate what they crammed over
+> the last few weeks from those who command secret ninja networking powers.
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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