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+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60207=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Thu Oct 21 07:25:41 2004
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+Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 13:22:40 +0200 (CEST)
+From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410211300430.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
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+Status: OR
+
+I've made a partial implementation of a datatype "timestamp with time
+zone" as described in the sql standard. The current type "timestamptz"
+does not store the time zone as a standard one should do. So I've made a
+new type I've called timestampstdtz that does store the time zone as the
+standard demands.
+
+Let me show a bit of what currently works in my implementation:
+
+ dennis=# CREATE TABLE foo (
+ a timestampstdtz,
+
+ primary key (a)
+ );
+ dennis=# INSERT INTO foo VALUES ('1993-02-04 13:00 UTC');
+ dennis=# INSERT INTO foo VALUES ('1999-06-01 14:00 CET');
+ dennis=# INSERT INTO foo VALUES ('2003-08-21 15:00 PST');
+
+ dennis=# SELECT a FROM foo;
+ a
+ ------------------------
+ 1993-02-04 13:00:00+00
+ 1999-06-01 14:00:00+01
+ 2003-08-21 15:00:00-08
+
+ dennis=# SELECT a AT TIME ZONE 'CET' FROM foo;
+ timezone
+ ------------------------
+ 1993-02-04 14:00:00+01
+ 1999-06-01 14:00:00+01
+ 2003-08-22 00:00:00+01
+
+My plan is to make a GUC variable so that one can tell PG that constructs
+like "timestamp with time zone" will map to timestampstdtz instead of
+timestamptz (some old databases might need the old so unless we want to
+break old code this is the easiest solution I can find).
+
+I've made an implicit cast from timestampstdtz to timestamptz that just
+forgets about the time zone. In the other direction I've made an
+assignment cast that make a timestamp with time zone 0 (that's what a
+timestamptz is anyway). Would it be possible to make it implicit in both
+directions? I currently don't think that you want that, but is it
+possible?
+
+With the implicit cast in place I assume it would be safe to change
+functions like now() to return a timestampstdtz? I've not tried yet but I
+will. As far as I can tell the cast would make old code that use now() to
+still work as before.
+
+Any comments before I invest more time into this subject?
+
+--
+/Dennis Björklund
+
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60208=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Thu Oct 21 10:34:36 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60208=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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+ Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:29:10 -0400 (EDT)
+To: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410211300430.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410211300430.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+Comments: In-reply-to Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+ message dated "Thu, 21 Oct 2004 13:22:40 +0200"
+Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:29:07 -0400
+Message-ID: <15232.1098368947@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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+Status: OR
+
+Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org> writes:
+> I've made a partial implementation of a datatype "timestamp with time
+> zone" as described in the sql standard. The current type "timestamptz"
+> does not store the time zone as a standard one should do.
+
+I'm aware that there are aspects of the spec behavior that appear to
+require that, but is it really an improvement over the implementation
+we have? This is an area in which the standard is pretty brain-dead
+--- the entire concept of a "time with time zone" datatype is rather
+suspect, for instance.
+
+In particular, I wonder how you will handle daylight-savings issues.
+The spec definition seems to preclude doing anything intelligent with
+DST, as they equate a timezone with a fixed offset from UTC. That's
+not how it works in (large parts of) the real world.
+
+ regards, tom lane
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
+
+ http://archives.postgresql.org
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60210=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Thu Oct 21 11:08:02 2004
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+ id D08B88467; Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:01:52 +0200 (CEST)
+Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:01:52 +0200 (CEST)
+From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+In-Reply-To: <15232.1098368947@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410211637560.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
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+Status: OR
+
+On Thu, 21 Oct 2004, Tom Lane wrote:
+
+> > I've made a partial implementation of a datatype "timestamp with time
+> > zone" as described in the sql standard. The current type "timestamptz"
+> > does not store the time zone as a standard one should do.
+>
+> I'm aware that there are aspects of the spec behavior that appear to
+> require that, but is it really an improvement over the implementation
+> we have?
+
+Improvement and improvement. The actual time value is of course the same
+(the utc part of a timestamp) and the only thing extra you get is that the
+time zone is stored. The extra information you do have now, when stored in
+this way, is that you store both a utc time and a local time. Will any
+application ever need that? Who knows? I think it makes sense and is an
+easier model to think about then what pg uses today. So I would use it
+even if it means using 2 bytes more storage then what timestamptz do
+
+Just that it is standard also makes it useful. The more things of the
+standard we support the easier it is to move between databases. This is
+important to me.
+
+I also want to make a general statement that I think that whenever we use
+standard syntax we should give it a standard semantics. I don't mind
+extensions at all, but as much as we can we should make sure that they
+don't clash with standard syntax and semantics.
+
+> This is an area in which the standard is pretty brain-dead
+> --- the entire concept of a "time with time zone" datatype is rather
+> suspect, for instance.
+
+I havn't look that much at "time with time zone" yet, just timestamps.
+
+I can't see why time with time zone should not also be supported. I can't
+really imagine it being used without a date, but if someone wants to store
+timestamps as a date+time with time zone, then why not. It would be extra
+work tu is it instead of a timestamp (especially for cases where the time
+wraps over to the prev/next day), but hey.
+
+> In particular, I wonder how you will handle daylight-savings issues.
+> The spec definition seems to preclude doing anything intelligent with
+> DST, as they equate a timezone with a fixed offset from UTC. That's
+> not how it works in (large parts of) the real world.
+
+The tz in the standard is a offset from utc, yes. So when you store a
+value you tell it what offset you use. If you are using daylight-savings
+time it might be +02 and if not dst it might be +01. What else would you
+want to do with it? It's not like you can do anything else with it in pg
+as of today, can you?
+
+The stored tz does not say what region of the globe you are in, it says
+the distance away from utc in minutes that you are. I could imagine
+another datatype that stores the time zone as name, but that's not what
+timestamp with time zone does.
+
+--
+/Dennis Björklund
+
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend
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+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60232=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Fri Oct 22 08:43:06 2004
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+ Fri, 22 Oct 2004 08:39:12 -0400
+From: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
+To: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 08:37:33 -0400
+User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2
+cc: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410211637560.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410211637560.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
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+Status: OR
+
+On Thursday 21 October 2004 11:01, Dennis Bjorklund wrote:
+> On Thu, 21 Oct 2004, Tom Lane wrote:
+> > I'm aware that there are aspects of the spec behavior that appear to
+> > require that, but is it really an improvement over the implementation
+> > we have?
+>
+> Improvement and improvement. The actual time value is of course the same
+> (the utc part of a timestamp) and the only thing extra you get is that the
+> time zone is stored. The extra information you do have now, when stored in
+> this way, is that you store both a utc time and a local time. Will any
+> application ever need that? Who knows? I think it makes sense and is an
+> easier model to think about then what pg uses today. So I would use it
+> even if it means using 2 bytes more storage then what timestamptz do
+>
+
+In a fit of early morning, pre-coffee thoughts, I'm thinking this might be
+just what I've been looking for. In one of my apps we take calls from around
+the country for customers and store the time that call came in. Unfortunately
+we need to know things like how many calls did we take in an hour across
+customers, but also how many calls did we take at 6AM local time to the
+customer. The way PostgreSQL works now, you have to store some extra bits
+of info in another column and then reassemble it to be able to determine
+those two queries, but it sounds like your timestampstdtz would allow that
+information to be stored together, as it should be.
+
+--
+Robert Treat
+Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60235=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Fri Oct 22 10:18:44 2004
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+To: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
+cc: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+In-Reply-To: <200410220837.33886.xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
+References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410211637560.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org> <200410220837.33886.xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
+Comments: In-reply-to Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
+ message dated "Fri, 22 Oct 2004 08:37:33 -0400"
+Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:13:18 -0400
+Message-ID: <6540.1098454398@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at hub.org
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+
+Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
+> In a fit of early morning, pre-coffee thoughts, I'm thinking this might be
+> just what I've been looking for. In one of my apps we take calls from around
+> the country for customers and store the time that call came in. Unfortunately
+> we need to know things like how many calls did we take in an hour across
+> customers, but also how many calls did we take at 6AM local time to the
+> customer. The way PostgreSQL works now, you have to store some extra bits
+> of info in another column and then reassemble it to be able to determine
+> those two queries, but it sounds like your timestampstdtz would allow that
+> information to be stored together, as it should be.
+
+As far as I can tell, Dennis is planning slavish adherence to the spec,
+which will mean that the datatype is unable to cope effectively with
+daylight-savings issues. So I'm unconvinced that it will be very
+helpful to you for remembering local time in addition to true
+(universal) time.
+
+ regards, tom lane
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60237=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Fri Oct 22 10:33:04 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60237=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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+ id 336C88467; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:28:12 +0200 (CEST)
+Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:28:12 +0200 (CEST)
+From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+cc: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>,
+ <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+In-Reply-To: <6540.1098454398@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410221615150.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
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+Status: OR
+
+On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Tom Lane wrote:
+
+> As far as I can tell, Dennis is planning slavish adherence to the spec,
+> which will mean that the datatype is unable to cope effectively with
+> daylight-savings issues. So I'm unconvinced that it will be very
+> helpful to you for remembering local time in addition to true
+> (universal) time.
+
+And exactly what issues is it that you see? The only thing I can think of
+is if you have a timestamp and then add an interval to it so we jump past
+the daylight saving time change date. Then the new timestamp will keep the
+old timezone data of say +01 even though we now have jumped into the
+daylight saving period of +02.
+
+If you are just storing actual timestamps then the standard definition
+works just fine. If I store '2004-10-22 16:20:04 +02' then that's exactly
+what I get back. No problem what so ever. There is no DST problem with
+that.
+
+It's possible that I will introduce some daylight saving bit or something
+like that, I'm not sure yet and I will not commit to anything until I've
+thought it over. I don't think there are that much of a problem as you
+claim however. Could you give a concret example where it will be a
+problem?
+
+My current thinking is that storing the time zone value as HH:MM is
+just fine and you avoid all the problems with political changes of when
+the DST is in effect or not.
+
+--
+/Dennis Björklund
+
+
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+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60240=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Fri Oct 22 10:58:26 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60240=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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+ Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:54:19 -0400 (EDT)
+To: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+cc: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410221615150.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410221615150.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+Comments: In-reply-to Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+ message dated "Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:28:12 +0200"
+Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:54:19 -0400
+Message-ID: <6994.1098456859@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at hub.org
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+Status: OR
+
+Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org> writes:
+> And exactly what issues is it that you see? The only thing I can think of
+> is if you have a timestamp and then add an interval to it so we jump past
+> the daylight saving time change date. Then the new timestamp will keep the
+> old timezone data of say +01 even though we now have jumped into the
+> daylight saving period of +02.
+
+Isn't that sufficient? You can't design a datatype by thinking only of
+the data values it stores; you have to think about the operations you
+intend to provide as well. A non-DST-capable timestamp datatype is
+inherently a few bricks shy of a load. (BTW we really need to fix
+the interval type as well...)
+
+At bottom, what I want to be able to do is say
+ '2004-10-22 10:50:16.916003 America/New_York'
+and have the datatype preserve *all* of the information in that. You
+are complaining because the existing type only remembers the equivalent
+universal time and not the timezone spec. Why should I be satisfied if
+it stores only the GMT offset and not the knowledge of which timezone
+this really is?
+
+> My current thinking is that storing the time zone value as HH:MM is
+> just fine and you avoid all the problems with political changes of when
+> the DST is in effect or not.
+
+This is fundamentally misguided. Time zones *are* political whether you
+like it or not, and people *do* expect DST-awareness whether you like it
+or not. If you still use any computer systems that need to be reset
+twice a year because their designers thought DST was not their problem,
+don't you roundly curse them every time you have to do it?
+
+If you were planning to store a real (potentially DST-aware) timezone
+spec in the data values, I'd be happy. But storing a fixed GMT offset
+is going to be a step backwards compared to existing functionality. The
+fact that it's sufficient to satisfy the DST-ignorant SQL spec does not
+make it a reasonable design for the real world.
+
+One way to do this would be to create a system catalog with entries for
+all known timezones, and then represent timestamptz values as universal
+time plus an OID from that catalog. There are other ways that small
+integer codes could be mapped to timezones of course.
+
+ regards, tom lane
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60239=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Fri Oct 22 10:49:13 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60239=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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+Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 09:56:44 -0500
+From: Bruno Wolff III <bruno@wolff.to>
+To: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+cc: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>, Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>,
+ pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+Message-ID: <20041022145644.GA17238@wolff.to>
+Mail-Followup-To: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>,
+ Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,
+ Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>,
+ pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+References: <6540.1098454398@sss.pgh.pa.us> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410221615150.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
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+
+On Fri, Oct 22, 2004 at 16:28:12 +0200,
+ Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org> wrote:
+> On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Tom Lane wrote:
+>
+> > As far as I can tell, Dennis is planning slavish adherence to the spec,
+> > which will mean that the datatype is unable to cope effectively with
+> > daylight-savings issues. So I'm unconvinced that it will be very
+> > helpful to you for remembering local time in addition to true
+> > (universal) time.
+>
+> And exactly what issues is it that you see? The only thing I can think of
+> is if you have a timestamp and then add an interval to it so we jump past
+> the daylight saving time change date. Then the new timestamp will keep the
+> old timezone data of say +01 even though we now have jumped into the
+> daylight saving period of +02.
+
+I think for just storing values you are fine. When it comes to adding or
+subtracting intervals you might get some unexpected results.
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60253=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Fri Oct 22 14:44:05 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60253=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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+ id 89B7E8467; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:34:19 +0200 (CEST)
+Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:34:19 +0200 (CEST)
+From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+cc: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>,
+ <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+In-Reply-To: <6994.1098456859@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410221714500.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+MIME-Version: 1.0
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+
+On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Tom Lane wrote:
+
+> At bottom, what I want to be able to do is say
+> '2004-10-22 10:50:16.916003 America/New_York'
+
+Yes, that's what we said in the last mail and I think there is a value in
+having something like this.
+
+> universal time and not the timezone spec. Why should I be satisfied if
+> it stores only the GMT offset and not the knowledge of which timezone
+> this really is?
+
+You don't need to be satisfied with it. I think a type like the above
+would be fine to have. It should however not be called "TIMESTAMP WITH
+TIME ZONE" because there is already a definition of that type. We can not
+hijack standard types. I would not mind a type like TIMESTAMP WITH TIME
+ZONE NAME (or some other name). I could even imagine that I could
+implement something like that one day.
+
+> > My current thinking is that storing the time zone value as HH:MM is
+> > just fine and you avoid all the problems with political changes of when
+> > the DST is in effect or not.
+>
+> This is fundamentally misguided. Time zones *are* political whether you
+> like it or not, and people *do* expect DST-awareness whether you like it
+> or not.
+
+And I never said that time zones are not political, just that HH:MM is a
+usable approximation that works fairly well.
+
+> But storing a fixed GMT offset is going to be a step backwards compared
+> to existing functionality.
+
+It's not a step backwards since you can do everything you can do with the
+current type plus a little bit more. It's however not a step to the
+datatype discussed above.
+
+> One way to do this would be to create a system catalog with entries for
+> all known timezones, and then represent timestamptz values as universal
+> time plus an OID from that catalog. There are other ways that small
+> integer codes could be mapped to timezones of course.
+
+This is just fine. You try to make it sound like I am against such a
+datatype, I am not. It's however not the datatype that we can expect
+applications and other databases to use. So why should we settle for only
+that type. Just because you can make a perfect datatype it doesn't mean
+that the standard datatype should just be ignored.
+
+What would you store when the user supplies a timestamp like '2004-10-22
+17:21:00 +0200'. Should you reject that because you don't know the
+time zone name? So your datatype will not work for applications that try
+to be compatable with many databases by using the standard?
+
+Maybe one could make a datatype called TIMESTAMP WITH TIME ZONE that can
+accept both HH:MM and TimeZoneName. Whenever you store values with HH:MM
+time zones you will get the same problem when you add an interval as the
+standard type has.
+
+--
+/Dennis Björklund
+
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60266=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Fri Oct 22 17:04:46 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60266=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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+ Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:01:34 -0400 (EDT)
+To: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+cc: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410221714500.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410221714500.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+Comments: In-reply-to Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+ message dated "Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:34:19 +0200"
+Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:01:32 -0400
+Message-ID: <18876.1098478892@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at hub.org
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+
+Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org> writes:
+> You don't need to be satisfied with it. I think a type like the above
+> would be fine to have. It should however not be called "TIMESTAMP WITH
+> TIME ZONE" because there is already a definition of that type. We can not
+> hijack standard types.
+
+Sure we can, as long as they are upward compatible with the standard
+behavior. The spec says you can put a numeric-GMT-offset zone in and
+get a numeric-GMT-offset zone out. We can do that and also support
+named, possibly DST-aware zones. This seems a whole lot better to me
+than having two different types (the idea of a GUC variable to choose
+which one is selected by a given type name is just horrid).
+
+>> But storing a fixed GMT offset is going to be a step backwards compared
+>> to existing functionality.
+
+> It's not a step backwards since you can do everything you can do with the
+> current type plus a little bit more.
+
+... except get useful answers from interval addition ...
+
+> What would you store when the user supplies a timestamp like '2004-10-22
+> 17:21:00 +0200'. Should you reject that because you don't know the
+> time zone name?
+
+You are attacking a straw man.
+
+We have put a great deal of work into 8.0 to add the ability to support
+real-world zones fully. We did not import src/timezone because we
+needed it to implement the SQL spec; we did so because we needed it to
+implement what real users want. We are not fully there yet (can't do AT
+TIME ZONE conversions with all zones yet, for instance) but I am hoping
+to be there by 8.1. It would be folly to invent a timestamp with time
+zone type that is going in the other direction while we are trying to
+bring the rest of the system up to full speed by allowing all timezone
+kinds everywhere.
+
+ regards, tom lane
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60267=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Fri Oct 22 17:22:15 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60267=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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+Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 23:18:07 +0200 (CEST)
+From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+cc: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>,
+ <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+In-Reply-To: <18876.1098478892@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410222306560.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+MIME-Version: 1.0
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+
+On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Tom Lane wrote:
+
+> than having two different types (the idea of a GUC variable to choose
+> which one is selected by a given type name is just horrid).
+
+That is needed no matter what change you do if you want old programs that
+use the current timestamp with time zone to work. Today you don't get back
+the same time zone as you insert, programs might depend on that.
+
+> We are not fully there yet (can't do AT TIME ZONE conversions with all
+> zones yet, for instance)
+
+Why is that? When one start with a utc value, performing a AT TIME ZONE
+operation doesn't look so complicated.
+
+--
+/Dennis Björklund
+
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
+
+ http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60268=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Fri Oct 22 17:41:36 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60268=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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+ Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:38:25 -0400 (EDT)
+To: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+cc: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410222306560.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410222306560.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+Comments: In-reply-to Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+ message dated "Fri, 22 Oct 2004 23:18:07 +0200"
+Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:38:24 -0400
+Message-ID: <19117.1098481104@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at hub.org
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+Precedence: bulk
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+Status: OR
+
+Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org> writes:
+> On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Tom Lane wrote:
+>> than having two different types (the idea of a GUC variable to choose
+>> which one is selected by a given type name is just horrid).
+
+> That is needed no matter what change you do if you want old programs that
+> use the current timestamp with time zone to work. Today you don't get back
+> the same time zone as you insert, programs might depend on that.
+
+[ shrug... ] We've made much larger changes than that in the name of
+standards compliance. In practice I think the majority of apps are
+working in contexts where they will get back the same zone as they
+inserted, if they inserted a zone explicitly at all, so the risk of
+breakage is not that high. Having a GUC variable that changes the
+semantics underneath you is *much* riskier, to judge by past experience.
+
+>> We are not fully there yet (can't do AT TIME ZONE conversions with all
+>> zones yet, for instance)
+
+> Why is that?
+
+Because it's not done yet. There's a set of GMT-offset-only zone names
+wired into the datetime code (look in the "datetime token table") and
+those are what AT TIME ZONE knows how to deal with. We need to unify
+that old stuff with the src/timezone code, but we ran out of time to do
+it in 8.0.
+
+The way I see it, we have three sorts of zones to deal with: fixed
+numeric offsets from UTC, names that represent fixed offsets (eg, "EST"
+is the same as UTC-5), and names that represent DST-variable offsets
+(eg, "EST5EDT"). For what are now entirely historical reasons, various
+parts of the system cope with different subsets of these three types.
+I want to get to a state where you can use any of them in any context
+and it Just Works. (While we are at it, we need to make the set of
+recognized zone names user-configurable; the australian_timezones kluge
+satisfies our contributors Down Under, but there are a lot of unhappy
+people still, because for instance IST means different things in Israel
+and India.)
+
+ regards, tom lane
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60269=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Fri Oct 22 17:51:14 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60269=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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+ Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:48:48 -0400 (EDT)
+To: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+cc: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+In-Reply-To: <19117.1098481104@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410222306560.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org> <19117.1098481104@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+Comments: In-reply-to Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+ message dated "Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:38:24 -0400"
+Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:48:48 -0400
+Message-ID: <19191.1098481728@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at hub.org
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+Status: OR
+
+>> That is needed no matter what change you do if you want old programs that
+>> use the current timestamp with time zone to work. Today you don't get back
+>> the same time zone as you insert, programs might depend on that.
+
+> [ shrug... ] We've made much larger changes than that in the name of
+> standards compliance.
+
+BTW, even if you do want output like that, that doesn't make two
+datatypes a good idea. It'd be better to add a couple of DateStyle-like
+formatting options:
+ * rotate all timestamps into current TimeZone for display, or not;
+ * display the timezone numerically, or as originally given.
+
+A DateStyle kind of GUC variable is a lot less dangerous than what you
+were proposing, because getting it wrong doesn't mean you have the wrong
+data stored in the database ...
+
+ regards, tom lane
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60274=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Sat Oct 23 02:11:58 2004
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+ id 846788467; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 08:09:05 +0200 (CEST)
+Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 08:09:05 +0200 (CEST)
+From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+cc: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>,
+ <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+In-Reply-To: <18876.1098478892@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410230802200.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+MIME-Version: 1.0
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+Status: OR
+
+On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Tom Lane wrote:
+
+> behavior. The spec says you can put a numeric-GMT-offset zone in and
+> get a numeric-GMT-offset zone out. We can do that and also support
+> named, possibly DST-aware zones.
+
+So if I understand you correctly you are planning to extend the current
+timestamp type to work with both named time zones and HH:MM ones? I didn't
+think you wanted the last one since your plan was to store a UTC+OID where
+the OID pointed to a named time zone. And I guess that you don't plan to
+add 00:00, 00:01, 00:02, ... as named zones with an OID.
+
+--
+/Dennis Björklund
+
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60329=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 12:45:39 2004
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+From: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
+Organization: Aglio Database Solutions
+To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:42:38 -0700
+User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2
+References: <20041022184636.62D39EAEE02@svr1.postgresql.org>
+In-Reply-To: <20041022184636.62D39EAEE02@svr1.postgresql.org>
+MIME-Version: 1.0
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+Message-ID: <200410250942.38212.josh@agliodbs.com>
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+Status: OR
+
+Tom,
+
+> As far as I can tell, Dennis is planning slavish adherence to the spec,
+> which will mean that the datatype is unable to cope effectively with
+> daylight-savings issues. So I'm unconvinced that it will be very
+> helpful to you for remembering local time in addition to true
+> (universal) time.
+
+As somebody who codes calendar apps, I have to say that I have yet to see an
+implementation of time zones which is at all useful for this purpose,
+including the current implementation. My calendar apps on PostgreSQL 7.4
+use "timestamp without time zone" and keep the time zone in a seperate field.
+
+The reason is simple: our current implementation, which does include DST,
+does not include any provision for the exceptions to DST -- such as Arizona
+-- or for the difference between "1 day" and "24 hours". (Try adding "30
+days" to "2004-10-05 10:00 PDT", you'll see what I mean). Nor do I see a
+way out of this without raising the complexity, and configurability, level of
+timezones significantly.
+
+So if we're going to be broken (at least from the perspective of calendar
+applications) we might as well be broken in a spec-compliant way.
+
+--
+Josh Berkus
+Aglio Database Solutions
+San Francisco
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
+
+ http://archives.postgresql.org
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60334=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 13:56:27 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60334=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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+ Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:54:53 -0400 (EDT)
+To: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
+cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+In-Reply-To: <200410250942.38212.josh@agliodbs.com>
+References: <20041022184636.62D39EAEE02@svr1.postgresql.org> <200410250942.38212.josh@agliodbs.com>
+Comments: In-reply-to Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
+ message dated "Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:42:38 -0700"
+Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:54:53 -0400
+Message-ID: <21834.1098726893@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at hub.org
+X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers
+Precedence: bulk
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+X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at hub.org
+Status: OR
+
+Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes:
+> The reason is simple: our current implementation, which does include DST,
+> does not include any provision for the exceptions to DST -- such as Arizona
+
+Say what?
+
+regression=# set timezone to 'MST7MDT';
+SET
+regression=# select now();
+ now
+-------------------------------
+ 2004-10-25 11:52:47.093538-06
+(1 row)
+
+regression=# set timezone to 'US/Arizona';
+SET
+regression=# select now();
+ now
+-------------------------------
+ 2004-10-25 10:52:49.441559-07
+(1 row)
+
+> -- or for the difference between "1 day" and "24 hours". (Try adding "30
+> days" to "2004-10-05 10:00 PDT", you'll see what I mean).
+
+This is the point about how interval needs to treat "day" as different
+from "24 hours". I agree with that; the fact that it's not done already
+is just a reflection of limited supply of round tuits. I think it's
+orthogonal to the question of how flexible timestamp with time zone
+needs to be, though.
+
+> Nor do I see a way out of this without raising the complexity, and
+> configurability, level of timezones significantly.
+
+This does not seem to me to be an argument why timestamp with time zone
+ought to be incapable of dealing with DST-aware time zones. That simply
+guarantees that calendar apps won't be able to use the datatype. If
+they still can't use it when it can do that, then we can look at the
+next blocking factor.
+
+> So if we're going to be broken (at least from the perspective of calendar
+> applications) we might as well be broken in a spec-compliant way.
+
+I have not said that we can't comply with the spec. I have said that
+our ambitions need to be higher than merely complying with the spec.
+
+ regards, tom lane
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
+ subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your
+ message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60335=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 14:08:52 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60335=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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+ by davinci.ethosmedia.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8)
+ with ESMTP id 6553760; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:08:08 -0700
+From: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
+Reply-To: josh@agliodbs.com
+Organization: Aglio Database Solutions
+To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:08:52 -0700
+User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2
+cc: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+References: <20041022184636.62D39EAEE02@svr1.postgresql.org> <200410250942.38212.josh@agliodbs.com> <21834.1098726893@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+In-Reply-To: <21834.1098726893@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+MIME-Version: 1.0
+Content-Disposition: inline
+Content-Type: text/plain;
+ charset="utf-8"
+Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
+Message-ID: <200410251108.52164.josh@agliodbs.com>
+X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at hub.org
+X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers
+Precedence: bulk
+Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
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+Status: OR
+
+Tom,
+
+> regression=# set timezone to 'US/Arizona';
+> SET
+> regression=# select now();
+> now
+> -------------------------------
+> 2004-10-25 10:52:49.441559-07
+
+Wow! When did that get fixed? How do I keep track of this stuff if you
+guys keep fixing it? ;-)
+
+Of course, it would be very helpful if the result above could display
+"Arizona" instead of the non-specific "-07", but I'm pretty sure that's
+already a TODO.
+
+> This is the point about how interval needs to treat "day" as different
+> from "24 hours". I agree with that; the fact that it's not done already
+> is just a reflection of limited supply of round tuits.
+
+Well, when I first brought up the issue (2001) I was shot down on the basis of
+spec-compliance, since SQL92 recognizes only Year/Month and
+Day/Hour/Minute/etc. partitions. Glad it's up for consideration again.
+
+Come to think of it, it was Thomas Lockhart who shot down the idea of fixing
+Interval, and he's retired now ...
+
+> This does not seem to me to be an argument why timestamp with time zone
+> ought to be incapable of dealing with DST-aware time zones. That simply
+> guarantees that calendar apps won't be able to use the datatype. If
+> they still can't use it when it can do that, then we can look at the
+> next blocking factor.
+
+That's definitely a progressive attitude .... pardon me for being pessimistic.
+
+> I have not said that we can't comply with the spec. I have said that
+> our ambitions need to be higher than merely complying with the spec.
+
+Hmmm ... well, does the spec specifically prohibit DST, or just leave it out?
+
+--
+--Josh
+
+Josh Berkus
+Aglio Database Solutions
+San Francisco
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60336=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 14:21:12 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60336=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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+ Mon, 25 Oct 2004 14:19:40 -0400 (EDT)
+To: josh@agliodbs.com
+cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+In-Reply-To: <200410251108.52164.josh@agliodbs.com>
+References: <20041022184636.62D39EAEE02@svr1.postgresql.org> <200410250942.38212.josh@agliodbs.com> <21834.1098726893@sss.pgh.pa.us> <200410251108.52164.josh@agliodbs.com>
+Comments: In-reply-to Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
+ message dated "Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:08:52 -0700"
+Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 14:19:40 -0400
+Message-ID: <22093.1098728380@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at hub.org
+X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers
+Precedence: bulk
+Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
+X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at hub.org
+Status: OR
+
+Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes:
+>> regression=# set timezone to 'US/Arizona';
+>> SET
+>> regression=# select now();
+>> now
+>> -------------------------------
+>> 2004-10-25 10:52:49.441559-07
+
+> Wow! When did that get fixed? How do I keep track of this stuff if you
+> guys keep fixing it? ;-)
+
+> Of course, it would be very helpful if the result above could display
+> "Arizona" instead of the non-specific "-07", but I'm pretty sure that's
+> already a TODO.
+
+Well, that is *exactly what I'm talking about*. I want timestamp with
+time zone to carry "US/Arizona" not just "-07". Obviously there needs
+to be some option to get the latter displayed when that's all you want,
+but internally a value of the datatype needs to be able to carry full
+knowledge of which timezone it's supposed to be in. Dumbing that down
+to a simple numeric GMT offset isn't good enough.
+
+>> I have not said that we can't comply with the spec. I have said that
+>> our ambitions need to be higher than merely complying with the spec.
+
+> Hmmm ... well, does the spec specifically prohibit DST, or just leave it out?
+
+It just doesn't talk about it AFAICS.
+
+To comply with the spec we definitely need to be *able* to support
+timezone values that are simple numeric GMT offsets. But I think we
+ought also to be able to store values that are references to any of
+the zic database entries. This looks to me like a straightforward
+extension of the spec.
+
+We went to all the trouble of importing src/timezone in order that we
+could make a significant upgrade in our timezone capability, and now
+it's time to take the steps that that enables. Before we were limited
+to the lowest-common-denominator of the libc timezone routines on all
+our different platforms, but now we are not...
+
+ regards, tom lane
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
+
+ http://archives.postgresql.org
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60337=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 14:28:59 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60337=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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+Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 20:26:59 +0200 (CEST)
+From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+To: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
+cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+In-Reply-To: <200410251108.52164.josh@agliodbs.com>
+Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252019320.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
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+
+On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Josh Berkus wrote:
+
+> Hmmm ... well, does the spec specifically prohibit DST, or just leave it
+> out?
+
+It doesn't discuss it. According to the spec a timestamp with time zone is
+a UTC value + a HH:MM offset from GMT. And intervals in the spec is either
+a year-month value or a day-time value. One can only compare year-month
+values with each other and day-time values with each other. So they avoid
+the problem of the how many days is a month by not allowing it.
+
+The spec is not a full solution, it's also not a useless solution. I'm
+happy as long as the spec is a subset of what pg implements. If not then I
+would like to be able to have both but with different names or something
+similar (but I think that should not be needed).
+
+--
+/Dennis Björklund
+
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60338=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 14:54:31 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60338=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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+ with ESMTP id 6553982; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:53:49 -0700
+From: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
+Reply-To: josh@agliodbs.com
+Organization: Aglio Database Solutions
+To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:54:33 -0700
+User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2
+cc: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252019320.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252019320.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+MIME-Version: 1.0
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+Message-ID: <200410251154.33532.josh@agliodbs.com>
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+
+Dennis,
+
+> It doesn't discuss it. According to the spec a timestamp with time zone is
+> a UTC value + a HH:MM offset from GMT. And intervals in the spec is either
+> a year-month value or a day-time value. One can only compare year-month
+> values with each other and day-time values with each other. So they avoid
+> the problem of the how many days is a month by not allowing it.
+
+That's not what Tom and I were talking about. The issue is that the spec
+defines Days/Weeks as being an agglomeration of hours and not an atomic
+entity like Months/Years are. This leads to some wierd and
+calendar-breaking behavior when combined with DST, for example:
+
+template1=> select '2004-10-09 10:00 PDT'::TIMESTAMPTZ + '45 days'::INTERVAL
+template1-> ;
+ ?column?
+------------------------
+ 2004-11-23 09:00:00-08
+(1 row)
+
+Because of the DST shift, you get an hour shift which is most decidely not
+anything real human beings would expect from a calendar. The answer is to
+try-partition INTERVAL values, as:
+
+Hour/Minute/Second/ms
+Day/Week
+Month/Year
+
+However, this could be considered to break the spec; certainly Thomas thought
+it did. My defense is that the SQL committee made some mistakes, and
+interval is a big one.
+
+--
+--Josh
+
+Josh Berkus
+Aglio Database Solutions
+San Francisco
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60339=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 15:07:28 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60339=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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+ Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:04:16 -0400 (EDT)
+To: josh@agliodbs.com
+cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org, Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+In-Reply-To: <200410251154.33532.josh@agliodbs.com>
+References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252019320.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org> <200410251154.33532.josh@agliodbs.com>
+Comments: In-reply-to Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
+ message dated "Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:54:33 -0700"
+Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:04:16 -0400
+Message-ID: <22502.1098731056@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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+Status: OR
+
+Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes:
+>> It doesn't discuss it. According to the spec a timestamp with time zone is
+>> a UTC value + a HH:MM offset from GMT. And intervals in the spec is either
+>> a year-month value or a day-time value. One can only compare year-month
+>> values with each other and day-time values with each other. So they avoid
+>> the problem of the how many days is a month by not allowing it.
+
+> That's not what Tom and I were talking about. The issue is that the spec
+> defines Days/Weeks as being an agglomeration of hours and not an atomic
+> entity like Months/Years are.
+
+I think though that these points are closely related. The reason the
+spec does that is exactly that they are ignoring DST and so they can
+assume that 1 day == 24 hours == 86400 seconds. In a DST-aware world
+you have to make a separation between days and the smaller units, just
+as months are separated from smaller units because there's not a fixed
+conversion factor.
+
+To some extent the interval and timestamptz issues are orthogonal, but
+I think it would be good to fix them in the same release if possible.
+There will undoubtedly be some backwards-compatibility problems, and
+I suppose that users would prefer to take them all at once than via
+the chinese water torture method ...
+
+> However, this could be considered to break the spec; certainly Thomas
+> thought it did. My defense is that the SQL committee made some
+> mistakes, and interval is a big one.
+
+I'm not clear to what extent we have to actually break the spec, as
+opposed to extend it, in order to do this to the "interval" type. To do
+everything the spec says we need to do, we'll have to be able to make
+some comparisons that aren't strictly valid (which amounts to assuming
+that 1 day == 24 hours for some limited purposes) but we already do much
+the same things with respect to months. (See other thread about whether
+1 year == 360 days...)
+
+ regards, tom lane
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
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+ http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60340=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 15:12:25 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60340=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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+ id 156808467; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:11:04 +0200 (CEST)
+Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:11:04 +0200 (CEST)
+From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+To: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
+cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+In-Reply-To: <200410251154.33532.josh@agliodbs.com>
+Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252103340.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+MIME-Version: 1.0
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+Status: OR
+
+On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Josh Berkus wrote:
+
+> Dennis,
+>
+> > It doesn't discuss it. According to the spec a timestamp with time zone is
+> > a UTC value + a HH:MM offset from GMT. And intervals in the spec is either
+> > a year-month value or a day-time value. One can only compare year-month
+> > values with each other and day-time values with each other. So they avoid
+> > the problem of the how many days is a month by not allowing it.
+>
+> That's not what Tom and I were talking about.
+
+You wanted to know what the standard said, and I told what I knew.
+
+> The issue is that the spec defines Days/Weeks as being an agglomeration
+> of hours and not an atomic entity like Months/Years are.
+
+I don't know what you mean with this. The standard does treat them as
+
+year
+month
+day
+hour
+minute
+second (with fractions)
+
+There is no weeks there, if that is what you mean.
+
+> This leads to some wierd and calendar-breaking behavior when combined
+> with DST, for example:
+>
+> template1=> select '2004-10-09 10:00 PDT'::TIMESTAMPTZ + '45 days'::INTERVAL
+> template1-> ;
+> ?column?
+> ------------------------
+> 2004-11-23 09:00:00-08
+> (1 row)
+>
+> Because of the DST shift, you get an hour shift which is most decidely not
+> anything real human beings would expect from a calendar.
+
+I don't see how the above can be caused by the representation of an
+interval. The above timestamp is
+
+2004-10-09 10:00 PDT
+
+which in the standard would be
+
+2004-10-09 10:00 -07
+
+and after the additon would be
+
+2004-11-23 10:00:00-07
+
+Here the time zone is wrong since the standard does not know about named
+zones and dst.
+
+An implementation like the one Tom (and I) want would start with
+
+2004-10-09 10:00 PDT
+
+and then after the addition one would get
+
+2004-11-23 10:00:00 PST
+
+At least that's my understanding of what we want and what we can get (plus
+that we also need to support HH:MM tz values since those also exist in the
+world, check this emails header for example).
+
+It's possible that you discuss something else, but that has been lost on
+me so far.
+
+--
+/Dennis Björklund
+
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60341=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 15:15:18 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60341=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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+Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:12:59 +0200 (CEST)
+From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+To: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
+cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+In-Reply-To: <200410251154.33532.josh@agliodbs.com>
+Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252112090.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
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+
+On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Josh Berkus wrote:
+
+> Hour/Minute/Second/ms
+> Day/Week
+> Month/Year
+
+And just when I pressed "send" on the previous mail I got the problem
+:-)
+
+--
+/Dennis Björklund
+
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60342=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 15:20:32 2004
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+ id 36B248467; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:18:52 +0200 (CEST)
+Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:18:52 +0200 (CEST)
+From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+To: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
+cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+In-Reply-To: <200410251154.33532.josh@agliodbs.com>
+Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252114250.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+MIME-Version: 1.0
+Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1
+Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT
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+X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers
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+Status: OR
+
+On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Josh Berkus wrote:
+
+> Hour/Minute/Second/ms
+> Day/Week
+> Month/Year
+
+This is embarrasing. I'm still a bit confused :-)
+
+The standard treat days as a separate entry, it does not assume that a day
+is 24 hours. It restricts the hour field to the interval 0-23 so one can
+never have something like 25 hours. So it does not need to worry about how
+many days that translate to.
+
+And why do we need weeks also?
+
+Well, this is the last mail I send before I've been thinking about this
+for a while more :-)
+
+--
+/Dennis Björklund
+
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
+
+ http://archives.postgresql.org
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60344=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 15:36:30 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60344=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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+ by sss.pgh.pa.us (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id i9PJZ429022817;
+ Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:35:04 -0400 (EDT)
+To: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+cc: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252114250.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252114250.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+Comments: In-reply-to Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+ message dated "Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:18:52 +0200"
+Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:35:04 -0400
+Message-ID: <22816.1098732904@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at hub.org
+X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers
+Precedence: bulk
+Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
+X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at hub.org
+Status: OR
+
+Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org> writes:
+> The standard treat days as a separate entry, it does not assume that a day
+> is 24 hours.
+
+SQL92 says
+
+ 4.5.2 Intervals
+
+ There are two classes of intervals. One class, called year-month
+ intervals, has an express or implied datetime precision that in-
+ cludes no fields other than YEAR and MONTH, though not both are
+ required. The other class, called day-time intervals, has an ex-
+ press or implied interval precision that can include any fields
+ other than YEAR or MONTH.
+
+AFAICS the reason for this rule is that they expect all Y/M intervals to
+be comparable (which they are) and they also expect all D/H/M/S intervals
+to be comparable, which you can only do by assuming that 1 D == 24 H.
+
+It seems to me though that we can store days separately and do interval
+comparisons with the assumption 1 D == 24 H, and be perfectly
+SQL-compatible as far as that goes, and still make good use of the
+separate day info when adding to a timestamptz that has a DST-aware
+timezone. In a non-DST-aware timezone the addition will act the same as
+if we weren't distinguishing days from h/m/s. Therefore, an application
+using only the spec-defined features (ie, only fixed-numeric-offset
+timezones) will see no deviation from the spec behavior.
+
+ regards, tom lane
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60343=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 15:31:38 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60343=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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+ for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:31:36 -0400 (EDT)
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+Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 14:40:57 -0500
+From: Bruno Wolff III <bruno@wolff.to>
+To: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+cc: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org,
+ Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+Message-ID: <20041025194057.GA26356@wolff.to>
+Mail-Followup-To: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>,
+ Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org,
+ Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+References: <200410251154.33532.josh@agliodbs.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252114250.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+MIME-Version: 1.0
+Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
+Content-Disposition: inline
+In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252114250.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
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+Status: OR
+
+On Mon, Oct 25, 2004 at 21:18:52 +0200,
+ Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org> wrote:
+> On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Josh Berkus wrote:
+>
+> > Hour/Minute/Second/ms
+> > Day/Week
+> > Month/Year
+>
+> This is embarrasing. I'm still a bit confused :-)
+>
+> The standard treat days as a separate entry, it does not assume that a day
+> is 24 hours. It restricts the hour field to the interval 0-23 so one can
+> never have something like 25 hours. So it does not need to worry about how
+> many days that translate to.
+>
+> And why do we need weeks also?
+
+For convenience. Just like years are a group of months, weeks are a group
+of days.
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60346=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 16:10:09 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60346=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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+ for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:10:08 -0400 (EDT)
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+ for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:08:14 +0100 (BST)
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+ by zigo.dhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
+ id 025568467; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:08:14 +0200 (CEST)
+Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:08:14 +0200 (CEST)
+From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+cc: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>, <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+In-Reply-To: <22816.1098732904@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252204070.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+MIME-Version: 1.0
+Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1
+Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT
+X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at hub.org
+X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers
+Precedence: bulk
+Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
+X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at hub.org
+Status: OR
+
+On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Tom Lane wrote:
+
+> There are two classes of intervals. One class, called year-month
+> intervals, has an express or implied datetime precision that in-
+> cludes no fields other than YEAR and MONTH, though not both are
+> required. The other class, called day-time intervals, has an ex-
+> press or implied interval precision that can include any fields
+> other than YEAR or MONTH.
+>
+> AFAICS the reason for this rule is that they expect all Y/M intervals to
+> be comparable (which they are) and they also expect all D/H/M/S intervals
+> to be comparable, which you can only do by assuming that 1 D == 24 H.
+
+I said I was not going to send any more mails, but here we go again :-)
+
+The standard restrict the hour field to the interval 0-23, so there can
+never be any compare between for example '1 day 1 hour' and '25 hours'.
+This means that one can not add two intervals together to get a bigger
+one but that it would still work to do timestamp+interval+interval.
+
+> It seems to me though that we can store days separately and do interval
+> comparisons with the assumption 1 D == 24 H, and be perfectly
+> SQL-compatible as far as that goes, and still make good use of the
+> separate day info when adding to a timestamptz that has a DST-aware
+> timezone. In a non-DST-aware timezone the addition will act the same as
+> if we weren't distinguishing days from h/m/s. Therefore, an application
+> using only the spec-defined features (ie, only fixed-numeric-offset
+> timezones) will see no deviation from the spec behavior.
+
+I agree with this.
+
+--
+/Dennis Björklund
+
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60347=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 16:20:45 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60347=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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+ for <pgsql-hackers-postgresql.org@localhost.postgresql.org>;
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+ by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 726633A3CF2
+ for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:17:51 +0100 (BST)
+Received: from [64.81.245.111] (account josh@agliodbs.com HELO temoku.sf.agliodbs.com)
+ by davinci.ethosmedia.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8)
+ with ESMTP id 6554308; Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:19:17 -0700
+From: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
+Reply-To: josh@agliodbs.com
+Organization: Aglio Database Solutions
+To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:20:01 -0700
+User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2
+cc: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252103340.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252103340.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+MIME-Version: 1.0
+Content-Disposition: inline
+Content-Type: text/plain;
+ charset="iso-8859-1"
+Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
+Message-ID: <200410251320.01311.josh@agliodbs.com>
+X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at hub.org
+X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers
+Precedence: bulk
+Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
+X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at hub.org
+Status: OR
+
+Dennis,
+
+> An implementation like the one Tom (and I) want would start with
+>
+> 2004-10-09 10:00 PDT
+>
+> and then after the addition one would get
+>
+> 2004-11-23 10:00:00 PST
+
+Sounds like we're on the same page then.
+
+> The standard restrict the hour field to the interval 0-23, so there can
+> never be any compare between for example '1 day 1 hour' and '25 hours'.
+> This means that one can not add two intervals together to get a bigger
+> one but that it would still work to do timestamp+interval+interval.
+
+Hour field of the timestamp, or hour field of interval? There a world of
+difference.
+
+As long as we're willing to live with the understanding that +1day 1 hour may
+produce a slightly different result than + 25 hours, I don't see the problem.
+Currently I can add +900 hours if I like, postgreSQL will support it.
+
+--
+--Josh
+
+Josh Berkus
+Aglio Database Solutions
+San Francisco
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
+ subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your
+ message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60348=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 16:24:27 2004
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+Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:22:29 +0200 (CEST)
+From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+To: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
+cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+In-Reply-To: <200410251320.01311.josh@agliodbs.com>
+Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252221150.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+MIME-Version: 1.0
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+
+On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Josh Berkus wrote:
+
+> > The standard restrict the hour field to the interval 0-23, so there can
+> > never be any compare between for example '1 day 1 hour' and '25 hours'.
+> > This means that one can not add two intervals together to get a bigger
+> > one but that it would still work to do timestamp+interval+interval.
+>
+> Hour field of the timestamp, or hour field of interval? There a world of
+> difference.
+
+Hour field of an interval can be 0-23 according to the spec (doesn't say
+that we need that restriction, but we do need to understand what the spec
+say).
+
+--
+/Dennis Björklund
+
+
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+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60349=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 16:34:48 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60349=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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+ Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:32:37 -0400 (EDT)
+To: josh@agliodbs.com
+cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org, Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+In-Reply-To: <200410251320.01311.josh@agliodbs.com>
+References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410252103340.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org> <200410251320.01311.josh@agliodbs.com>
+Comments: In-reply-to Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
+ message dated "Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:20:01 -0700"
+Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:32:37 -0400
+Message-ID: <23329.1098736357@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at hub.org
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+
+Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes:
+> As long as we're willing to live with the understanding that +1day 1 hour may
+> produce a slightly different result than + 25 hours, I don't see the problem.
+
+Right, which is exactly why we can't accept the spec's restriction that
+the hour field be limited to 0-23. People may legitimately want to add
+48 hours to a timestamp, and *not* have that mean the same as adding
+"2 days". Besides, we would have a backwards-compatibility problem if
+we tried to forbid it, since as you note we've always accepted such input.
+
+ regards, tom lane
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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+ http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60371=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 21:26:49 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60371=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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+ Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:25:25 +0800 (WST)
+Message-ID: <417DA785.7010208@familyhealth.com.au>
+Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:25:25 +0800
+From: Christopher Kings-Lynne <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au>
+User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913)
+X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
+MIME-Version: 1.0
+To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+cc: josh@agliodbs.com, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+References: <20041022184636.62D39EAEE02@svr1.postgresql.org> <200410250942.38212.josh@agliodbs.com> <21834.1098726893@sss.pgh.pa.us> <200410251108.52164.josh@agliodbs.com> <22093.1098728380@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+In-Reply-To: <22093.1098728380@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
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+
+>>>regression=# set timezone to 'US/Arizona';
+>>>SET
+>>>regression=# select now();
+>>>now
+>>>-------------------------------
+>>>2004-10-25 10:52:49.441559-07
+>
+>
+>>Wow! When did that get fixed? How do I keep track of this stuff if you
+>>guys keep fixing it? ;-)
+
+That's worked for ages. What doesn't work is this:
+
+usatest=# select current_timestamp at time zone 'US/Arizona';
+ERROR: time zone "us/arizona" not recognized
+
+Chris
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60372=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 21:41:27 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60372=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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+ Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:39:46 -0400 (EDT)
+To: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+cc: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410230802200.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0410230802200.2015-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
+Comments: In-reply-to Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
+ message dated "Sat, 23 Oct 2004 08:09:05 +0200"
+Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:39:43 -0400
+Message-ID: <3222.1098754783@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at hub.org
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+Status: OR
+
+Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org> writes:
+> So if I understand you correctly you are planning to extend the current
+> timestamp type to work with both named time zones and HH:MM ones? I didn't
+> think you wanted the last one since your plan was to store a UTC+OID where
+> the OID pointed to a named time zone. And I guess that you don't plan to
+> add 00:00, 00:01, 00:02, ... as named zones with an OID.
+
+I missed getting back to you on this, but I think we can do both. Some
+random points:
+
+* Once we expand timestamptz to bigger than 8 bytes, there's essentially
+zero cost to making it 12 bytes, and for that matter we could go to 16
+without much penalty, because of alignment considerations. So there's
+plenty of space.
+
+* What we need is to be able to represent either a fixed offset from UTC
+or a reference of some kind to a zic database entry. The most
+bit-splurging way of doing the former is a signed offset in seconds from
+Greenwich, which would take 17 bits. It'd be good enough to represent
+the offset in minutes, which needs only 11 bits.
+
+* I suggested OIDs for referencing zic entries, but we don't have to do
+that; any old mapping table will do. 16 bits would surely be plenty to
+assign a unique label to every present and future zic entry.
+
+* My inclination therefore is to extend timestamptz with two 16-bit
+fields, one being the offset from UTC (in minutes) and one being the
+zic identifier. If the identifier is zero then it's a straight numeric
+offset from UTC and the offset field is all you need (this is the SQL
+spec compatible case). If the identifier is not zero then it gives you
+an index to look up the timezone rules. However, there is no need for
+the offset field to go to waste; we should store the offset anyway,
+since that might save a trip to the zic database in some cases.
+
+* It's not clear to me yet whether the stored offset in the second case
+should be the zone's standard UTC offset (thus always the same for a
+given zone ID) or the current-time offset for the timestamp (thus
+different if the timestamp is in daylight-savings or standard time).
+
+* If we store the current-time offset then it almost doesn't matter
+whether the timestamp itself is stored as a UTC or local time value;
+you can trivially translate either to the other by adding or subtracting
+the offset (*60). But I'm inclined to store UTC for consistency with
+past practice, and because it will make comparisons a bit faster: you
+can compare the timestamps without adjusting first. Generally I think
+comparisons ought to be the best-optimized operations in a Postgres
+datatype, because index operations will do a ton of 'em. (We definitely
+do NOT want to have to visit the zic database in order to compare two
+timestamptz values.)
+
+ regards, tom lane
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
+
+From pgsql-hackers-owner+M60373=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Mon Oct 25 21:53:52 2004
+Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M60373=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org>
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+ Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:52:00 -0400 (EDT)
+To: Christopher Kings-Lynne <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au>
+cc: josh@agliodbs.com, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
+Subject: Re: [HACKERS] timestamp with time zone a la sql99
+In-Reply-To: <417DA785.7010208@familyhealth.com.au>
+References: <20041022184636.62D39EAEE02@svr1.postgresql.org> <200410250942.38212.josh@agliodbs.com> <21834.1098726893@sss.pgh.pa.us> <200410251108.52164.josh@agliodbs.com> <22093.1098728380@sss.pgh.pa.us> <417DA785.7010208@familyhealth.com.au>
+Comments: In-reply-to Christopher Kings-Lynne <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au>
+ message dated "Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:25:25 +0800"
+Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:52:00 -0400
+Message-ID: <3306.1098755520@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
+X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at hub.org
+X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers
+Precedence: bulk
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+Status: OR
+
+Christopher Kings-Lynne <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au> writes:
+> That's worked for ages. What doesn't work is this:
+
+> usatest=# select current_timestamp at time zone 'US/Arizona';
+> ERROR: time zone "us/arizona" not recognized
+
+Right, and similarly you can do
+
+regression=# select '2004-10-25 21:32:33.430222 MST'::timestamptz;
+ timestamptz
+-------------------------------
+ 2004-10-26 00:32:33.430222-04
+(1 row)
+
+but not
+
+regression=# select '2004-10-25 21:32:33.430222 US/Arizona'::timestamptz;
+ERROR: invalid input syntax for type timestamp with time zone: "2004-10-25 21:32:33.430222 US/Arizona"
+
+I would like to see both of these cases working in 8.1; and furthermore
+I'd like to see the timezone specs coming back as entered, not as bare
+numeric offsets. (This will need to be adjustable via a DateStyle
+option, of course, but I want the information to be in there whether it
+is displayed or not.)
+
+ regards, tom lane
+
+---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
+TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
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