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+From: "Robert J. Sanford, Jr." <rsanford@nolimitsystems.com>
+To: <pgsql-general@postgresql.org>
+Subject: Re: [GENERAL] PL/java?
+Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 23:02:04 -0500
+Message-ID: <HOEFIONAHHKFEFENBMNOAEPPCBAA.rsanford@nolimitsystems.com>
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+Status: OR
+
+note - i don't work for any of the companies whose products
+are mentioned below. i have performed evaluations of these
+products and the support provided when attempting to determine
+what platform my company's systems should run on. unfortunately,
+i did not choose orion and i am suffering for it now...
+
+some goober blathered thusly:
+> Have you ever actually used Java on an enterprise-level
+> application? Ever see the Tomcat webserver? It uses
+> 100MB of memory, drives the load on our server up to 8,
+> and doesn't serve nearly as fast apache. Do you really
+> want that in your database?
+
+first - don't complain about java because you or someone
+in your group/department/company made a poor decision on
+what tools to use. that's like complaining about mexican
+food when the only experience you have is eating an out-
+dated frozen burrito from the 7-11 freezer.
+
+when looking at the performance of java you have to take
+a look at two things - first you have to compare various
+java implementations against each other and then you have
+to compare the best java implementations against native
+c/c++ code. the following link does that. the java tests
+include tomcat, orion, websphere, and resin. jrun and
+weblogic were originally included in the testing but
+were both removed at their companies' request.
+
+the tests also compare orion vs microsoft asp running on
+win2k and iis5. all tests run on the same hardware.
+
+what i believe these tests clearly demonstrate is that
+java is not the problem, the implementation applications
+based on java is. i also do not believe that tomcat is
+a fair representation of java performance in that it is
+intended to be a reference implementation. as such, the
+code base should sacrifice performance for clarity.
+
+http://www.orionserver.com/benchmarks/benchmark.html
+
+
+while not in the benchmark i would also like to
+recommend jetty as an app server. it is an opensource,
+100% java web and application server. in its base form
+it is "just" a web, servlet, and jsp engine. it does,
+however, have contributed code providing integration
+with other j2ee opensource projects such as the JBoss
+EJB engine.
+
+you can find the jetty home page at:
+ http://jetty.mortbay.com/
+
+and then they blathered some more:
+> Compare the speed of Oracle 8 with 8i if you don't
+> believe me. The stability is also much worse. Ever
+> see a JVM on any platform that didn't crash if you
+> looked at it cockeyed? Ever really trust the garbage
+> collection? I don't. I've found a memory leak in IBM
+> developed java libraries. Gotta restart that app
+> every once in a while to reclaim system resources it
+> gobbled up and never gave back.
+
+some mention was made regarding the performance of
+the oracle8i application server. well, oracle has
+realized that their performance was sub-optimal and
+rectified the situation by licensing the orion server
+for oracle9i. while money and politics most certainly
+play a part in any licensing arrangement they must
+also realize that making customers happy through the
+performance of their applications will lead to more
+money. the link to the press release is below.
+
+http://www.oracle.com/corporate/press/index.html?759347.html
+
+all of that being said...
+
+i don't think that the person that started this thread
+did anything wrong by making the request they did. that
+is what opensource is all about - contributions, even
+just contributions of ideas, are welcomed. even so, there
+are several options that i see for getting it implemented:
+1) its an open source project so implement it yourself.
+ while i have never worked on modifying the code base
+ i am extremely confident that the current developers
+ will be more than willing to give you advice and
+ pointers.
+2) if #1 is not feasible either because you don't have
+ the time, the inclination, or the experience then
+ you can write a contract that will pay one of the
+ postgres developers to implement it for you.
+3) if that isn't feasible you can try to get a volunteer
+ to do so.
+4) if that isn't feasible then you either have to live
+ with what you have, go elsewhere, or be quiet.
+
+to the person that blathered thusly in response to the
+request for java:
+> Merits of the language notwithstanding, I'd rather
+> not have a buggy, still under development
+> (depreciating everything under the sun with every
+> new iteration) JVM parasite in my DB.
+
+informed and intelligent debate is good. given that i
+believe such to be true, i would request that you
+refrain from blathering such vitriol and uninformed
+nonsense. not only is it for the good of the people
+on the list who don't want to hear it but it will
+also do you good by not telling everyone out there
+that you are a very silly person that doesn't deal
+with logic and/or facts.
+
+to everyone else on the list - if we all contribute
+a penny we could probably buy enough burritos from
+7-11 to make sure that his hands and mouth are busy
+for a good long while.
+
+rjsjr
+
+
+
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